Part 2: Songwriter David Bibbey continues his talk with Brian Jackson of EMI Music US and steels himself for Brian's opinions on his demo... This is the last article in a two‑part series.
Those of you who read the first part of this series in last month's SOS will know that I'm a songwriter who decided to investigate the best way of obtaining a publishing deal by interviewing the people who really know — top executives at world‑famous publishing companies. Last month we left off just as Brian Jackson of EMI Music Publishing US had agreed to listen to my demo and give his honest comments. But first, some words from Brian on what makes a great song...
Song Structure
What makes a song stand out? Is it the melody, the lyrics, or is it the rhythm of the song?
"It's a package deal. I'll listen to a song, and what will hit me is the music; I hear the chord changes, I hear the melody, but I won't hear the lyrics first. The music grabs me, and then I'll rewind it and listen to the lyrics. At that point the lyrics will have to be good, and at the same time the chorus of the song has to hit me as well. If all of those are there, there is a song there. If there is something lacking it will probably get tossed."
Is there a time within which you can tell?
"I usually give it until the chorus, but sometimes the lyrics are so bad that I just can't bear it. A lot of times you can have a great song, then get to the chorus and you don't want to hear any more, it's horrible. Sometimes you hear bad lyrics or lyrics that are not that striking during the verse, but when you get to the chorus it's striking or catchy, so I always go through the chorus. If the first verse and chorus hit me, I'll listen through to the second verse and chorus. Then it's time for the bridge, though if there is no bridge, a bridge can be worked in later. I actually found a song when I was in Mercury records, called 'I'm in Love', performed by Joe, and it really didn't have a bridge on the demo, but I still heard that it was a great song, so the bridge isn't as important as a good chorus. But the verse and the chorus have to be there."
The moment you visualise your dreams, take down the barrier and cast aside the thought that you can't do it, at that moment, anything is attainable.
What would you refer to as a bridge — an instrumental?
"Either an instrumental or a chord progression into a change of key, with lyrics."
It sounds to me as though you're very determined that the song should have structure. And for me, having heard a lot of people's songs, if I'm critical of them it's often the structure of the song that makes them weak.
"But, then again, I have heard songs that have the same loop going through the entire song, but at that point — and it is often in R&B music — it's about groove. If it's a groove, no‑one really cares. But then you have to have a melody, and if you want to really get down to it, the melody is the key to the entire song. Without the melody there is no song, you can sing a melody over anything. If you have a song with no melody, you're in trouble."
What Makes A Good Demo?
When you hear a demo, do you prefer to hear it very clean, a melody with a simple backing, rather than a full arrangement? Would you say it stands out more with just the melody, lyrics and simplicity?
"Can I play something for you? Of course this man is barely alive in a lot of peoples' eyes, but I want you to consider this song; [Brian plays the song as an illustration of his view that simplicity of recording and performance is OK if the song is strong enough.] This song is currently out, and any person in this world who plays a guitar and sings can make a demo like that. However I guarantee you that any person who makes a tape with three or four songs as good as that has a deal. It is as simple as 1‑2‑3."
In what format would you like to see a demo? Cassette, DAT or CD? DAT would be rather expensive for a demo, of course.
"Cassette is just fine. DAT would be dangerous: not that people do it, but you can take a DAT and master from it and who would know? I don't recommend it."
Paranoia
In terms of copying, how much paranoia is justified? There are a lot of people who are paranoid about their songs being ripped off.
"A lot of A&R people are not musicians, are not former artists, are not musically inclined, they are just people doing their jobs. In their case, you're safe because they are not personally going to rip you off, but if they can't express what they want, they can take your song and say they want something to sound like it, and then there may be some talented producer who takes your idea and rips it off. Either way they can be deadly: if they were musically talented, they could just listen to it and come up with a derivative of it, or they could use your idea in conjunction with a producer or artist."
Do you think that happens? Is it naive to think it doesn't?
"Yes."
Then there is justified paranoia there and it's sensible to ensure that you have copyright sorted out.
"Definitely."
Do you ever get into difficulties as a publishing company over whether a songwriter's song is really his/hers?
"A lot of times, the dispute is not over whether it's their song, but how much it is their song. If you ever co‑write, before anybody leaves the room, you need a piece of paper that has the splits, and the publishing companies and individuals need to sign it. That way there is no dispute later about who wrote what and what the agreement was. A lot of times people write on the assumption of 50‑50 and when it's time to collect from the record company they say, 'I wrote the verse, the hook and the bridge — you just told me to say ooh instead of aah.' One wrote 90% and one 10%. Neither one remembers, and no‑one can prove anything, so the money is tied up in the record company, and they won't pay anybody until the splits are agreed upon."
Crunch Time
How many songs should be on a demo?
"No more than four. Some people put more. I would be very upset if I had to listen to more than four songs. Some people say three, but I like four."
Would you say it is best to mix them in styles, or just pick the four that you think are the best?
"Do what you do best. Stick to what you do best. A lot of people, when trying to get writing deals, put all different types of music on their tape to try to show their versatility. However, you may not be strong in your R&B songs, but your AC [Adult Contemporary] pop songs may be incredible, so would you rather be signed as someone strong in AC pop songs, or not signed at all as not being a consistent writer? I think you'd rather be signed. I would say do what you do best, and don't try to accommodate a publisher's ear." (Brian plays the first song on my demo completely through, using the DAT recording.)
Get straight into the song. Do not waste time. You do not have time to waste.
So go ahead, take it apart.
"No, it's nice listening music. My only comment, as it's a demo, is that you might want to shorten the intro. I thought it was instrumental for a second. Imagine if I had a stack of tapes over here, and I was going through songs, listening to verse and chorus, and I put that in, I would have thought it was an instrumental and turned it off. So that would have been a mistake and you would have lost the chance to get it heard.
"Get straight into the song. Do not waste time. You do not have time to waste. This is what you should remember: the verse should not be too long, you need to get to the chorus and get out. I'm a verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge, chorus man. Because what other time do you have to waste? Who wants to hear it? If they liked the song they will go back in and play with the idea. Let them do it. But in terms of playing the song, make it short and sweet."
And what about backing? Should it be fully arranged?
"If it's necessary to put background vocals in to give the feel to a song, then do it, but as I stated before you don't have to do any of that. How do you classify your music?"
I find it hard to describe my songs as being in a particular style. What I would like to think it is, what I think it is and what it really is are three different things. I would l like to think it is in the style of Paul Simon, but that embarrasses me a little, perhaps because it's too old and a little middle of the road. I would also like to think it is something like Simply Red, but it probably doesn't fall into either the Simply Red or Paul Simon style. I would be interested to know what you thought about that song, about how you would classify it.
"I would almost say 'sweet folk', if that's any kind of definition. I also think that it's conceptual; if you had an album, all it would take then was someone who liked that sort of music and they would love your album, whereas if you took that song and mixed it with another type of song, it might not fit in."
That particular song is not my personal favourite, but a lot of people have said to me that it is a great song, whenever I play or perform it, at parties or whatever, they love to hear that song. People when they have heard the full tape, the works, have come up with others, but that is the one that has, I would say, a public vote.
"But are they all in the same style?"
No.
"Well, that can be a problem. A&R people — because they're rushing, you know, they're always in a rush — don't have time to try and figure out what kind of an artist they're dealing with, so when you are putting a demo together, trying to shop for a deal, you have to be careful that you put on it what is indicative of you, what you want to be represented as, what you want your style to be and how you want to be perceived. Even if you have a great song, if it's not your style, it's going to confuse whoever you are trying to sell it to."
I would say do what you do best, and don't try to accommodate a publisher's ear.
You would say, then, that it's important to develop a style and to stick with it.
"Exactly, and if you look at superstars, that's it exactly — Madonna, she took a sex theme and stuck with it, Michael Jackson, Prince, he does not stray from his style; he will incorporate different genres, but he will put his own twist to it. Looking at superstars that have longevity, they have found a style and they stick to it, and that's where the artistry comes in. It's the sense of style, not the music."
And yet most bands and artists want to be versatile — that's the irony, isn't it?
"But the key is to be versatile with your style; that's the way to keep your longevity going."
Do you want to hear another?
"Sure." (Brian plays song two from the demo.)
"That's real cool. I really like that. How much of the rest of your stuff is like that?"
I would say more like that song than the previous one.
"I don't know, it's just cool, and talking about styles, it's a good song, because I could think about Sting singing that song. It's clever, those lyrics are clever."
When you hear something like that first song, and it's on a three‑song demo, would you have gone onto the second song?
"If that song was first, I would have listened on; if the other song was first, I might not have listened on. I would definitely listen on from that one."
Persistence
Perhaps you can tell me how you worked your way up, what got you into the music business in the first place?
"I was at the University of Virginia, planning to go onto Law school. I figured everyone needs to know business and it would help with my Law and everything, so I went to school to major in that. When I got to school, a couple of things changed my mind; a business major was accounting and economics, and I thought if I had to deal with numbers for the rest of my life that could be very boring and mundane. So I tried to find something to do that I would enjoy for the rest of my life. There was this 'extern' programme, where you told the school where you would like to work for the summer, and they arranged for you to work for free. I was interested in the extern programme but I still didn't know where I wanted to go. Somebody said 'you should call my cousin, he works in CBS records.' I thought about it, people getting paid to listen to music — what an incredible job! Coming from Virginia you don't even usually think on that level, it's an impossible dream. So I met up with a woman who hooked me up with the summer intern programme in New York at CBS records. I wasn't able to interview, because I was way down in Virginia, but I contacted the woman over the phone.
A&R people don't have time to try and figure out what kind of an artist they're dealing with, so when you're putting a demo together, be careful that you put on it what is indicative of you.
"This is where persistence comes in. I called every day, she hooked me up with a guy that needed an intern, I called him every day for two months straight, and he never called me back, and finally his assistant said 'you're being mean, why don't you call this guy?' And that's how I got in. So I had the summer internship, and after I graduated I came back up to New York, and a friend let me stay at his apartment, and I interviewed at Colombia and a few other places but I didn't get a job. So I went back to Virginia, and then decided to go to Atlanta. By this time my parents thought I was absolutely out of my mind. I interviewed with anybody, and I got a call back from Colombia records, to say would I like this job as marketing co‑ordinator for R&B music? So that started it; I went into marketing, then I left Colombia, and went to Mercury records, and I was a publicist for a year, and then I left to start working for the President in A&R. I was an assistant looking for different songs for different artists and while I was in that job I found a song called 'I'm in Love' for Joe, and a song called 'There is no living without you', and another called 'I just had to hear your voice', by Oleta Adams — word got around that I had this 'ear', and EMI publishing, Quest records and Arista records were calling me. EMI won!"
Once you have the credibility of having picked a few good songs, everyone gets to hear of it. Is that how the business works?
"Anything is possible, if you're committed to achieving it. The thing that I find fascinating is what stops so many people — the belief that something like this is not possible for them for some reason, that it's an unattainable goal.
"But the moment — and this is the way that I live — the moment that you visualise your dreams, take down the barrier and cast aside the thought that you can't do it, at that moment, anything is attainable, and the only reason that I preach it is I lived it. I was in college in Virginia and I said 'I'm going to get a job in the music industry', my family thought I was crazy, everyone that I was in school with thought I was crazy, but I'm sitting here today."